Faster, Leaner, Closer to the Client, and Two Hours to an Engagement Letter
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Big 4 Transparency
With Dominic Piscopo, CPA
Former Deloitte colleague Stewart Spiers tells Dominic Piscopo about leaving the Big 4 partner path to help build a tax planning practice at TAAG – why SMB clients pulled him back, what changes in speed and autonomy, and how partner economics differ between large and small firms.
Spiers spent roughly 15 years at Deloitte, starting as a co-op and rising through Private Company Services, before making a move many Big 4 professionals debate but rarely execute: stepping off the partner track to double down on the SMB clients he’s always gravitated toward. In this new episode of the Big 4 Transparency show, Spiers tells host Dominic Piscopo that his decision wasn’t driven by a bad experience at Deloitte, but by a career crossroads and a clearer answer to one question: What kind of work does he want to be doing in the future?
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For Spiers, the most energizing part of the job has consistently been working with owner-managed businesses, entrepreneurs, second-generation operators, and local companies where the accountant-client relationship is long-term and high-trust.
While Deloitte can deliver immense value, he described a growing friction between Big 4 structures and what many smaller businesses actually need. The firm’s push upmarket, bundled service-line model, and high billable rates can make it harder to serve “everyday” businesses where the ask is often bookkeeping, core accounting, and practical succession and planning – not ERP implementations and multi-service-line engagements.
That tension pushed Spiers toward something more entrepreneurial: more autonomy, faster decision-making, and a direct seat at the table shaping strategy. About a month into his new role at TAAG, he says the difference is immediate. In one example, a prospective client call turned into a signed engagement letter within hours – something he contrasted with the longer, multi-layer approval and KYC workflows common at Big 4 firms. The agility, he argues, isn’t just operational – it improves the client experience and makes it easier to deliver work quickly and proactively.
Spiers also described a “silo effect” many Big 4 professionals don’t recognize until they start exploring options: when your training, conferences, CPE, and internal networks all live inside one firm’s ecosystem, it can be hard to see the breadth of opportunity in the broader profession. Once he started talking to operators outside the Deloitte orbit and consuming more content from practitioner communities, he found everything from solo practices to platform models and niche firms scaling quickly with modern tech stacks and peer support networks.
The tradeoffs are real. Spiers noted that smaller firms don’t come with the same bench of internal specialists (e.g., indirect tax or cross-border teams you can instantly loop in), which can shift more responsibility onto the practitioner. But he views the upside – client fit, autonomy, and strategic influence – as worth it for this stage of his career.
Finally, the conversation pulled back the curtain on partner economics. Spiers contrasted Big 4 pooling models, where compensation can feel indirect and be a bit of a “black box” despite strong performance, with smaller-firm structures that more closely resemble “eat what you kill” or hybrid contribution-margin models. For entrepreneurial-minded CPAs, he suggested, the ability to directly benefit from margin, leverage, and practice-building can be a compelling alternative path, especially when paired with an existing client base and cross-sell opportunities that reduce the risk of starting from scratch.
Top Quotes
- “It wasn’t that anything was negative; I was just at a crossroads. The next step was leadership, and that’s a big commitment.”
- “At some point, you have to ask: what do I really want to be working on in 5, 10, 15 years?”
- “Two hours later, the client had an engagement letter in her inbox. I asked, ‘Is this normal?’”
- “In a small firm, if they ask you a question, it comes down to you – you don’t have the same specialist bench.”
- “It was eye-opening how much opportunity is out there once you step outside the Big 4 silo.”
- “With pooling models, you’re not directly incentivized. In smaller firms, it can be much more direct.”
Actionable Takeaways:
- Evaluate whether their long-term career fit aligns with Big Four structures (upmarket focus, service-line bundling, higher rates) or with SMB-centric advisory work.
- Identify “friction points” that prevent serving smaller clients well (pricing, bureaucracy, engagement workflows) and design alternatives that improve speed and client experience.
- Compare transition pathways: launching solo vs. joining a smaller firm with an existing client base and building a practice inside a platform.
- Recognize the resource tradeoff when leaving large firms (loss of internal specialists) and build external expert networks/communities to backfill technical depth.
- Analyze partner economics across models (pooled units vs. eat-what-you-kill vs. hybrid contribution margin) and map how each affects incentives and lifestyle.
- Apply an “entrepreneurship lens” to career choices by prioritizing autonomy, strategic input, and client-fit—rather than title progression alone.
About Stewart Spiers
Stewart Spiers is an Associate Partner at TAAG, where he advises small and mid-sized enterprises, professionals, and investors on tax strategy, business structure, and long-term planning. With 15 years of experience at Deloitte, Stewart combines big-firm analytical rigor with the accessibility and service of a boutique practice, helping clients cut through complexity and make confident decisions that support both growth and personal goals. Stewart’s approach is rooted in clarity and calm guidance. He specializes in translating complicated tax and corporate issues into clear, actionable strategies, empowering business owners to focus on what matters most: prosperity, continuity, and meaningful impact. Whether it’s compensation strategy, corporate reorganizations, succession planning, or integrated wealth structures, Stewart is a trusted advisor who brings thoughtful insights to his clients. More: TAAG, LinkedIn:
Transcript
Dominic Piscopo
Hello and welcome to the Big Four Transparency Podcast. I’m joined today by a former colleague of mine actually, Stuart Spires. Welcome to the pod, Stuart.
Stewart Spiers
Thank you, Dom, for having me. Glad to be here.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah. Yeah, my pleasure. So you were, I believe a manager when I started as an intern at Deloitte. and you were always kind of the, you know, SMB guy. Like I feel like you were always super interested in serving that clientele and you’re kind of kicking off a new journey now, I think probably largely driven by that interest in the SMB space. So, do you want to talk us through kind of what you, what you’ve been up to?
over the last little bit.
Stewart Spiers
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So definitely my focus was on the SMB and we called it a bunch of different things over the years. Actually, when I started in at Deloitte about 15 years ago as a co-op, we were, they call themselves PCS or private company services. So really servicing that market of small and medium sized companies. And they had a wide range of stuff. They had recently made an acquisition of a smaller firm. So it was like anything from professionals to…
construction companies, real estate. And I really liked the space when I joined first. Like you got to know the clients pretty well. They’re owner managed, a lot of entrepreneurs. And one of the reasons I went into accounting was because I like business. wasn’t sure which major to go into. I’m just like, I just want to be with these businesses and watch them grow and stuff. And accounting kind of clicked with me.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah, a tale as old as time. Same for me.
Stewart Spiers
Yeah, yeah. I’m like, and so it’s kind of like a de facto, I’m like, well, everybody needs an accountant numbers and counting is the language of business. So I’ll just work there. So I get to work with everybody. And that’s what ended up attracting me to that space and at the time Deloitte and then, yeah. So I, I practiced there and I had, you know, going up, uh, in Deloitte, at least professionally, I, I did some other stuff. Like I went to international tax for a while to see what that was about.
working with various groups, but I always got pulled back to that small and medium-sized business, the SMEs or SMBs. Again, because I felt the value was there, the clients like it, but you really grow that relationship. And it was just kind of exciting to be there with them. So yeah, I guess by the time when I was manager that you started, yeah, that was a space I kind of doubled down in. And that was probably like you mentioned,
before that’s kind of what drove me to where I am now is kind of being attracted to that space. So yeah, it’s something I’ve always been passionate about.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah. And then so most recently, you’re about a month into your new job. And so you kind of you ended up leaving the big four to go work at TAAG. So a much smaller practice that, you know, has a pretty wide scope of offerings. And it seems like you would be kind of the first sort of, you know, dedicated tax planning person at that firm. So
Stewart Spiers
Thank you.
Dominic Piscopo
You know, they were doing some tax work before, but it just seems like there was an appetite to level up that practice. And, and I mean, you would make a lot of sense for that, right? So I think that’s a great role. Can you talk us through what kind of drove the decision to want to look for something new? And, you know, for a lot of people, like you were at that next step where, you know, the next thing for you would have been partner at the big firm, which I’m sure is kind of what you aspired to for most of your career. so.
what drove the decision for the change?
Stewart Spiers
Yeah, it was a hard choice. mean, I didn’t leave anything that was really negative per se, but it was at a crossroads, like you said. I’m going to take the next step at leadership if I stay, which is a big commitment, right? I felt like if I took that step, stay for a little bit longer.
Dominic Piscopo
Mm-hmm.
Stewart Spiers
I’m going to be more committed, which is not necessarily good or bad, but it kind of made me take a step back and say, OK, look, what do I really want to be working on in 5, 10, 15 years? And what really excites me?
And it’s probably something kind of like you said, you’re always aspiring. Like I started 15 years ago and it was just like, you you want to be part of the leadership team. That it’s kind of the upper out mentality. And at some points, maybe you question it a bit, but it’s really important to have that conversation with yourself right before. And I was right there at the crossroads and kind of going back to your other questions is.
What is really excite me? What am I passionate about? And that was really working with these owner managed companies, the smaller ones. I was still doing that at Deloitte, probably at a different level. I was focusing on some different markets. It was great and it made sense for the markets that I was serving. But what I noticed is that my career over 15 years has kind of shifted. Like there were some…
Dominic Piscopo
Mm-hmm.
Stewart Spiers
divesters and stuff like that and business changes that happened that made me shift focus a bit, which were good. Lots of good opportunities there that I got to learn from. But I’m like, what do I want to do? And what kinds do I want to serve? And again, going back to the small businesses, I really wanted to be working with them. And I wanted to do that more, not less. And it was a bit tough to do. So I’m like, if I stay here, what would that look like at Deloitte?
And it kind of brought me, it was like a quite a big journey of me figuring it out. Um, and it wasn’t like an aha moment per se, cause I find any good decision or any big decision for you, it’s really rare that you’re going to be like, okay, here’s the one answer. You know, I did my pros and cons list and I talked to everybody and I made a decision. feel really good. It’s usually, they’re probably both good answers, but it’s just which one excites you more. And that’s really what I tried to do. I’m like, I don’t want to.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah, for sure.
Stewart Spiers (06:06.38)
wake up and be like, I have to go to work on one of this. I really want to be excited. And so for me, I went back to again, why I went to school, why I chose accounting, it’s working with these small companies. And that’s really why I to do. I, so that was a big factor in terms of like what I want to be working on. There was other ones as well, for sure. Because like you said, I went from big four to a small firm and there’s a range of spectrum of, you know, like how large
firms are, of course. And I went from probably, at least in the city, one of the largest tax practices to definitely somewhere on the other end of the spectrum. So what drove that decision was probably more, more, I wanted something more entrepreneurial. And that like what that really means is more autonomy, more ability to be involved in the strategic direction, something that’s a bit more like, you can have more direct input. Like as you
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
are aware of the big four partners. It’s a very large partnership. the leadership table, there’s lots of different leadership tables depending on the region and how they’re structured. it’s because of how large they are and how they’re governed, you lose a bit of that entrepreneurial spirit. And you can get it within your little market and your team. But I really wanted that to be a big focus in my career. So that was the other thing. So it was definitely the autonomy, the entrepreneurial
Dominic Piscopo (07:11.42)
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
and then the clients. And once those two things, kind of realized them, they clicked and it gave me a different lens when I was looking for a good position that would be a good fit for me.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah, yeah, I mean, some people, you know, on the on the way out, and when they talk about leaving a place, like, they leave because it’s truly like just really bad conditions. I think you and I both know, like the Ottawa office at the very least at the way like, there were some really good people. And I felt like in terms of the big four experience, we had it pretty good. There were there were really good people, there were people who would kind of vouch for us and advocate for us there, which was really nice. But then there are these structural
Stewart Spiers
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
challenges. that was really, that’s where I saw the writing on the wall for myself too, is it was just like not a structure that I was going to thrive in. And it was a bit of like a, it felt like a square peg in a round hole and very quickly realized like, this is just not going to be what I, what I want it to be. And, and for you on the small business side, just so we kind of understand this a little bit more clearly.
From my perspective, it seems like the biggest challenges of you being able to serve that market in the way you want. I mean, A, I remember towards when I was leaving, there was a big push for the firm to move more up market. And I know there was like a lot of questioning of should this person be a client or not? There were some people that I had met that I had kind of brought forward of like, I really want to work with them. And it was deemed to be not a fit, which can be challenging when what you maybe want might be at odds with.
the firm’s goals and then I would imagine the billable hour rate too is probably a bit of a challenge as well. sometimes you might just be pricing some of these businesses out that you want to work with I imagine as well. Was that a factor?
Stewart Spiers
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, like I said, like they’re dealing with a lot of different challenges because they’re so big, like any big four. They get they between the chargeable hours and the shift on focus. I don’t think the issue but the difference would be that I’ve observed is
is the push to bigger markets is they have all this value that they can add and they’re, is, which is really good, but really what they need, what they’re trying to do is have a client that’s a good fit with the value that they’re offering. And sometimes that’s not, you know, a small construction company, a landscaping company or a dentist. They might have something where they have a transaction where they’re getting the value and it makes sense. And, and, and maybe they’re one off or.
advisory consulting engagements. But for the most part, that’s the challenge that they have. And they’re not really in the business of turning anyone away. It’s just how they’re structured is to make sure they bring the full value to these clients. And full value, I’m meaning like, you know, consulting ERP, the audit, then, you know, financial advisory services, tax, of course, like everything. And when they can…
when they can engage like going together with like multiple service lines, it fits really well. And it’s a challenge. Like you can imagine, like if I, you you talk to, you know, a second generation landscaping company that’s working in my area and it’s like, do you need a ERP implementation along with an audit or review? And they’re like, they’re like, well, no, but I, you know, I need some bookkeeping and some accounting and I need some advice on some succession planning. So I think that’s where you have a bit of friction in terms of like,
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
what the client needs and the value of the firm, what they’re offering. And it’s a big challenge. So it’s something I’ve observed and, you know, like every firm goes through different life cycles, every office as well. Like you mentioned, Ottawa, that’s a wonderful office. And again, when I started, they had acquired a smaller firm within the city and they were doing pretty well because they took the team there. They integrated them with, again, it was PCS and
Dominic Piscopo (11:32.86)
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers (11:41.41)
they were working on those clients and it was structured fairly well to serve them. But over time, as things shifted, that like for one reason or another and through some divestitures, like that just didn’t exist anymore. And it’s not, you know, better or worse. It’s just different. And then of course you mentioned that the billable rates. So yeah, that’s a big challenge. Like I think I was, yeah, I was like, I looked at my billable rate before I left and it was, it was quite high.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah, for sure.
Stewart Spiers
You know, I find me even talking to somebody like, like, I, you know, I’ll work on onboarding you, getting your engagement letter out. And I’m like, okay, we’re already at like $5,000 and I haven’t even done anything yet. So it is a big challenge for sure. Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah. So let’s talk about the actual process of planning where you want it to go. I mean, we had some conversations and as well earlier you mentioned you were a little bit more interested in the sort entrepreneurial side of things where I definitely do agree from all the conversations I’ve had, you might be an equity partner at a big four, you’re still kind of an employee to a degree. I mean,
you share in a lot of the financial upside, but not necessarily the business decision-making experience of actually just being an entrepreneur. So one of the challenges with those big firms is they have excellent resources, but what ends up happening is you’re in the Deloitte verse basically, where all of the CPE is their CPE and there’s
They have their own conference, they have this and that, and you really don’t end up, you know, seeing the field of what’s going on in public accounting and what might be out there for you. So I’m curious to hear more about that journey and how you kind of decided that what you wanted to do was join an existing firm to scale up a practice rather than maybe just go out on your own.
Stewart Spiers
Yeah, yeah, that was a good point. And the whole journey was filled with probably a few surprises. Like you said, you’re kind of focused on that environment being in there, like a big four environment. In my case, at Deloitte, especially starting from co-op, right? Like my whole coming of age for my career was all at Deloitte. So all my training, like you said, everything was…
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
was Uncle D and they did a really good job. I think I don’t have a bar, another bar for reference, but like you, like after 15 years, can imagine like we, I know what’s out there from industry. Like you always get, you know, you’re talking to clients, you know, what’s out there on the industry side. But if you’re looking at something in public practice outside the firm, you probably know what’s going on at the other big four, their similarities and maybe, you know, you probably worked with them.
one way or another or have colleagues there. But I was surprised at how much else is out there. So you mentioned like you and I talked and like, because I know you had a very interesting journey. And, and you were out there. So you were one of my first conversations that I had. And you put me in touch with some people. So I was surprised when I started talking to those people outside the firm, surprised at how much is going on out there, how much
opportunity. I wouldn’t say the like how much market needs to still be served, but how much then how much appetite there is for, know, CPAs or good accounts out there, but also, like the, like the, like the amount of varied stuff you can do it there, like you can go out and be a solo practitioner. There’s a I know people doing that, like we know some mutual people doing that.
And I listened to a lot of guests in your podcast as part of that process like it’s and I didn’t really realize that was there right I I never had not that I wasn’t interested or maybe it was just me living under a rock or in that Deloitte silo It’s not something I ever pay too much attention to so when I did look at I was surprised and I was like that actually sounds pretty good because I’m comparing that again to what I want entrepreneurial and I’m like, you know, you can do that without killing yourself in a lot of
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Nice.
Stewart Spiers
in a lot of ways, like there’s a lot of good tech out there. There’s a lot of good tech stacks and like there’s a lot of good resources out there. So I was really surprised at the amount of people and support as well. It wasn’t just like, hey, come work with me or I’ll share you, you know, I’ll share a model with you and you can kind of do that there. There was everything under the sun. There was like platforms you can join. There was just support groups you can join. And there’s like, I think I’m on some Facebook.
tax practitioners in Canada that like they get the oddest questions on there. But it was, I joined all these groups and it was just, was, was eye-opening to see how many are out there and good opportunities too. like it wasn’t like it wasn’t that they were different caliber. They were great opportunities out there and there still are. So I was really surprised there. And probably what took me a while to kind of make the decision is I was really.
trying to see which one was a good fit for me. And you kind of mentioned that the latter half of your question is, you know, why did I end up joining a firm that’s already scaled up versus starting my own? And that was one I spent a lot of time on. Because again, if you like, I wanted to work with small clients, I wanted to be more entrepreneurial. So for sure, one of the things I looked at was starting, you know, something on my own small.
I’m like, do I want to do solo or would I want to scale? And then I really looked at what that journey would be like. I’ve got two young kids and a wife that played a factor in that. I I told Alice and my wife, I’m like, look, I’m like, you know, I’m probably going to leave. I mean, I want something more entrepreneurial.
Dominic Piscopo
for sure.
Stewart Spiers
you know, it’ll take me like two years to ramp up to my salary. Don’t worry. We just renovated our house. So I’ve got like a mortgage. She’s like reluctantly like, okay, you know, she wants to be really supportive. I’m like, I’m like, it’ll be okay. I’ll get some, you know, consulting jobs on the side to kind of stop that. But I really want to focus on ramping that up. And honestly, I’m not even sure it would have taken 24 months. Like most people I’ve talked to are like, it’s going to be sooner than that. Right. But,
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah. I mean, there’s a, there’s quite a spectrum. And once you’re out, the experienced senior manager level, it’s also a bigger backfill, right? Like by the time I left. Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
It is, yeah. Yeah, you have the handcuffs, which is, which is, yeah, a real danger for sure.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah, like by the time I left, was like, listen, I need to get to 100,000. Like that’s not, not feasible, but then the goalpost might be two and a half times further. So that becomes a little bit trickier for sure. And there’s a huge gambit, right? Some people are like, yeah, like year one, I doubled my salary. And then some other people are like, I am, you know, I’m two and a half years into it. And yeah. Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
Yeah, do you you want to I I didn’t want to kill myself like one of my things is I want more control autonomy and that’s including my flexibility to work so I didn’t really want to be dealing with IT issues and and and HR stuff and that was just a personal choice like like I knew I would have to scale like that’s that’s something that was like I tried I’m like what’s true I was not going to be solo for it’s a good
you know, if you could do it and it just wasn’t a good fit for me. So I’m like, I’m going to have to scale. And the firm that I was looking at that I ended up with, TAAG, we clicked really well. And I kind of took a step back and I’m like, they grew something really well. And there’s a big need for somebody like me coming into a taxi experience. So I feel like I was really lucky to find that good fit. Cause I’m like, if I were to scale up a firm and, you know, try to grow it over 10 years, it’d probably look like something like this.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
And I was fortunate enough to find that what I felt was a really good fit. So it made the decision a little bit easier for me to join something like TAAG, a small firm, rather than start my own.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Yeah, that’s been my newest thing over the last sort of three or so months where I’m pushing a lot of people towards similar moves as that when they speak with me because I think this is a it’s a really underrated opportunity. This one isn’t exactly that but you know, I just very recently was helping a CAS sort of bookkeeping practice who wanted to tack on tax services. And I had a couple people who would have been good
tax leaders for that. And I find that to be a really interesting opportunity because it’s it’s really synergistic for everybody. And I’m sure you don’t end up with the full amount of equity that you would have otherwise, but it’s a bigger pie, right? So you, you start on second, or maybe in your case, even kind of third base where it’s like, alright, well, there’s an existing base of compliance clients who already trust us, you can probably sift through that pretty quickly and find a
bunch of tax planning opportunities. And then there’s a cross-sell base from, you know, the wealth advisory group that they do who de facto will probably be a pretty good high net worth pool of people who tend to have some things going on that are tax planning opportunities, right? And so you can really limit your downside while still having a lot of the upside. Now at that point, it just becomes kind of like a personality thing of like,
Do I really fully just wanna be able to do whatever I want and put up with all the downsides of that? Or do I like having coworkers right off the bat? As someone who’s been working alone with contractors for the last year, I can tell you sometimes you feel like you’re going a little bit crazy, right? So yeah, there’s definitely benefits to that. So what’s been immediately one month in, like what stood out as being very, very different to you?
Stewart Spiers
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
Yeah, I’m exactly one month today, which has kind of worked out nicely. Yeah, it’s definitely different. Like I went in and it’s like just physically it’s quieter because like you mentioned the people, they’re, you know, I’m still working with people, but it’s a lot less people. And they’re a bit more concentrated, but some of the things that stood out over the last month is how agile they are. they’re, I…
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
I mentioned like going through the onboarding process at Deloitte and engagement. Like if I want to onboard a client, you know, you go through the know your client, KYC exercise, you do the background checks, you do the engagement letter, it gets approved at many different levels. It goes back and forth. You do, you know, we do have some sort of pricing thing in the background. And you know, a week and a half later, if you’re lucky, you get an engagement letter that the new firm, you know, one weekend,
I was on a call with a prospective client there for some advisory work and you know, we’re like, okay, here’s what we can do. And she’s like, that sounds wonderful. Let’s move forward, you know, with an engagement. And two hours later, she had an engagement letter in her, like in her inbox. And it was just like, I was like, my, I’m like, is that for me to review? Like the engagement, they’re like, no, it’s all been approved. It’s out in the client. And I got like, we, we open up like job costing, right? The job was opened up as well. And like, that was like,
I didn’t think it was two hours later. And I asked, I’m like, is this normal? It’s like, yeah, yeah, there’s just not a lot of a bureaucracy going through the process. Like it was, it was, it’s crazy how agile they are and not just with the onboarding, but with everything else as well. So I think that’s, I looked at that as a, as a positive thing. Again, not having to get like various levels of approval for stuff. So yeah, you have, and stuff’s more.
The feedbacks more like immediate. So if we need something changed, if something’s not working We just have a conversation again less people the just among like a couple people and stuff changes like we’re just like, okay Let’s let’s let’s adjust that let’s fix this and it just happens like almost real so like the agility to me is just is amazing because I’m not spinning like what would otherwise be hours or days waiting for something to happen
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
It just you can you can affect change really quickly and you can move forward really quickly So I really appreciate that because one of the things that I’m doing here is you growing the practice is I want to really make sure that our clients are being served really well like we you know, we do good work, of course and do it right but that they’re served well and part of that is You know, you’re being timely so like getting your engagement letter getting the work delivered quickly and then getting you know everything build out and
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
instead of like months, because we have a huge process, we can condense that down into a pretty small timeframe. So yeah, that’s been the biggest thing that I noticed over the last little while. And then on the people as well, I think you mentioned it before, but like the resources is way different. And I would, if I get some complex indirect tax issue or cross border, I’ve got a bunch of people who I know that are in that like service line specialty, that’s all they do.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
I can get an answer from them pretty quick or loop them in with the client. just doesn’t exist. That’s a small firm. So if they ask you a question, that comes down to basically you. You have to figure out what it’s going to be. losing that, not losing, but not having those specialists to rely on is a lot different too. So it’s not like it’s all on you. You can go on as a team, but at the same time, it’s like,
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
that’s a big difference that I’ve noticed is like you just don’t have that specialty of resources to get and that’s something I think I anticipated but actually, you know, seeing that even over one month is that’s been a big difference as well.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah, and I think, I mean, to a different degree, but some of that will come with time, right? Like, I mean, all these group chats from conferences and whatever I go to, and some people will just still drop a question in there. And someone will step up and be like, Hey, yeah, sure. You know, if you’re looking for the quick answer, it’s this like, or if you actually want support on the whole project, like we’ll subcontract under your engagement letter, if you want, you know, let me know for this. I think that’s
a big driver of why there’s all these communities as well in the accounting firm space. I’m not aware of as many in Canada, otherwise, I definitely would have sent you their way. like, yeah, but in the US, like there’s like, you know, there’s realized there’s thrival, there’s counter there, there’s like, so many communities, but these are they’re all these different flavors where one of them
Stewart Spiers (26:31.95)
Yeah, was going to say you get me in like Ropejack. That’s all he is. Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
is super good for tech and automation expertise. And another one is really good for, you know, firms, maybe zero to $3 million. And like all the problems that come with that. I mean, there is actually future firm in Canada, Ryan Lizanis, I might I might point you towards that. But yeah, no, there’s there’s all these kind of communities. And at one point, I was starting to scratch my head where I was like, okay, is this is this too much? Like, is this gotten out of hand?
But as I have more conversations with entrepreneurs, I realize how important it is to have every flavor, every kind of group, every peer group for whatever size you might be.
Stewart Spiers
CPA Canada, I signed up for something. They introduced, I think it’s semi-new, CPA Canada has CPA Canada tax 360. And I don’t know if it’s taken off, if they’ve been able to get enough people, but I think they’re trying to do something like that. I don’t know how successful it’s going to be or is, but they do have the platform for it. Because I think that’s important, like what you’re talking about.
Dominic Piscopo
Okay.
Dominic Pisco
Okay. Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
To have a community, yeah, it’s definitely vital for sure.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah. And then I sort of have one last question for you as well. And this is going to be we’re just going to share to whatever your comfort level is. But I’m sure the economics of things come into question a little bit when you’re making this decision, right. And without talking of like, what was your old salary? What’s your new salary? We have the database for that. And it’s more anonymous than this. But what what are kind of like the expectations and metrics at
at the partner level because I’m pretty sure I think at the big four, it was like $3 million book of business for income partner was the expectation and then you can get some percentage of that like what’s the what’s the difference there between the big firm and the smaller
Stewart Spiers (28:45.63)
Yeah, they have different models like between Deloitte and I would assume other big four and most big accounting firms. And then and then my current firm, TAAG And then they there’s also different models that other accounting firms as well. So definitely something I took into consideration. Deloitte and they’re pretty transparent with the whole process like one of their
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
goals over the last years is to be like your path to leadership, including how partners are compensated, your expectations from a financial point of view are pretty open, at least internally. And the number was for income partner, which is usually your first step before equity. The numbers, it was a bit lower, at least in Ottawa, than three. I think three is probably closer to equity.
Dominic Piscopo
Mm-hmm.
Dominic Piscopo
Okay.
Dominic Piscopo
Okay.
Stewart Spiers
And be like that would be the expectation around equity and it’s growing pretty quick I was talking to somebody else and you know, that’s still at the firm and I equated it to
you know, if you imagine young person trying to save for a home and the housing market keeps going up, there’s the housing market’s going up more than you can save. It’s sort of like that. Like, like it jumped a lot in, in, in some years, some years it doesn’t, but if you wait, like I, the person I was talking to, they, you know, they didn’t get, they were on the list, but they didn’t make the cut this year. Um, now they’re going to go through the process next year.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah, and the goalpost keeps moving.
Dominic Piscopo
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Mm-hmm.
Stewart Spiers
And but there’s new metrics with the new process. So they have to kind of revisit things and if it happens again, you’re kind of falling behind unless you can keep your book up. So it’s a it’s a big challenge and a big consideration. Yeah, so I mean, it’s like, yeah, I think the expectation for you know, for income partner or someone like director, which would be the step before, you know, equity would be like, it depends your region, like one and a half, probably two.
Dominic Piscopo
Okay.
Stewart Spiers
And which I mean, I mean, I was there personally. And that wasn’t necessarily why I left, but going to your point of like how you’re compensated on that, that’s where things change a bit. And they do a pooling system. like directors and income partners, they’re basically payroll, like they have a pretty set thing. But when it comes to equity, like they pool everything together, right? Like you get units, you get compensated.
dollar value on your units. This is similar to many different partnership models. And things can fluctuate, the number of units you hold can fluctuate, the dollar value every year fluctuates. But like, as you can imagine with a lot of the other processes, that’s really centralized and in some cases can be a bit of a black box. Like, oh, hey, I did $4 million of revenue this year. Am I going to get my 30 %? Like in like,
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
Old school thinking is one third, one third, one third. Like one third for overhead, one third for staffing costs, one third for the owner of the revenue. So 33%. But it’s not really like that. Maybe you’re plus or minus once you work it out, but it’s really the pooling models driven by a calculation, a metric, and they pool it all together and they allocate it based on units or some other measure. And I wasn’t a huge fan of that model because there’s
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Mm-hmm
Stewart Spiers
you’re not directly incentivized. I’m sure you are indirectly, like there’s a lot of financial pressure, but it’s a bit of a complicated process and it can shift a lot every year versus the model, like some small firms are a bit more direct. So something instead of like a baseline plus pooling profits, they do like eat what you kill. So it’s what’s your revenue, like your managed revenue.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Okay.
Stewart Spiers
Okay, we have overhead costs and then we have your direct salary costs based on standard rates like what went into it. And that’s good because as you can imagine, if you use leverage, you know, using some junior resources in addition to training them, they like on more complicated stuff, they’re going like your indirect costs is lower. So then your profit margin is yours. You keep it. So you can, and generally the percentage there is probably 40, 45.
even up to 50%, depending on what your overwrite component is. And that’s really what attracted me to a smaller firm specifically, because as you can imagine, that’s very entrepreneurial, because you’re like the profit, it’s all yours, basically. And you contribute to the health of the firm overall. You can still work on other files and…
Dominic Piscopo
Wow, yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Stewart Spiers
they have a system for that. So you’re not just siloed off in terms of like only care about your book and not care about others. There’s mechanisms to work together and to, the health of the firm. But really that’s probably the most entrepreneurial model out there. And then there’s other ones in between where it’s like, okay, you’re going to get a base and, or maybe you get a contribution margin. You get 40 % of your, you know, or 30 % of your, of your revenue or some maybe.
Contribution margin and then the rest goes to the firm and you pull it together and then you get a bonus based on maybe you own 5 % of the firm or 20 % you get a bonus based on that and that’s probably more of a hybrid model That could be really attractive as well, but probably exists more at like the mid firm level
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah.
Dominic Piscopo
Yeah, no, that’s really interesting. And I appreciate you sharing that. I think that’s, that’s good for people to understand as well and doing the calculus of like, like, does this make sense to do and whatnot. And for the stage at which you’re entering is really cool, where you can probably determine also, like the mix of your team, right of like, okay, do I want more junior staff and and have this sort of lower cost bar? Or do I want more senior staff and maybe, you know, not have to worry as much about me being involved in
I can focus more on other things, right? So you do definitely get that kind of entrepreneurial experience. So yeah, I’m fascinated by your kind of journey and I hope to check in at some point with you about how things are going a little bit later down the line. But in the meantime, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing this and I’m really rooting for you in this.
Stewart Spiers
Awesome. Well, thanks for having me. was a pleasure. And yeah, we’ll definitely have a follow up chat sometime sooner rather than later.